Brendan Nelson is way out of line

Federal Education Minister Dr Brendan Nelson is way out of line with his recent "accept our values or clear off" comments to Australian Muslims.

That isn't what this country is about. That isn't what democracy is about. The minute that you have one group of people forcing their values or beliefs on another group of people, you don't have a democracy any more - you have a form of fascism.

From Wikipedia:

The term fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that in various combinations:

• exalts the nation, (and in some cases the race, culture, or religion) above the individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.
• stresses loyalty to a single leader.
• uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition.
• engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
• engages in syndicalist corporatism.
• implements totalitarian systems.

Whenever we start talking about forcing people to accept our values or beliefs, instead of just adhering to our laws, we are trampling on basic individual rights. In a civilized democracy, everyone should have the most basic of rights - the right to live their life in whichever way they choose as long as they don't infringe on that same right in others. As soon as we start telling people what they have to believe, we're on a slippery slope. It is up to the non-Muslims in this country to make sure Brendan Nelson, and the rest of our politicians, get that message.

Particularly in times of fear and uncertainty we need to make sure we have a very clear grasp on the principles of a democracy.

Perhaps our Eduction Minister needs to go back to school.   

Comments

[Rob Irwin]

But, Cam, the things the government is trying to avoid (the preaching/teaching of intolerance, hate, etc) are things that WOULD affect other people and are thus covered by you saying, "the right to live their life in whichever way they choose as long as they don't infringe on that same right in others."

I think our democracy is quite sound, to be honest.

[Phillip Molly Malone]

Rob, that is how I understood there comments. As much as I think it should be complusory that all schools teach Aussie Rules, I don't think thats what they meant by our "Values".

Molly

[Ross Chapman]

You know, i disagree. I think Brendan Nelson is on the right track. In fact i think it needs to be taken a step further.

The easiest way to teach muslims "our values" is to get them into a controlled environment so that we can do it ourselves. Perhaps we should set aside certain areas of our capital cities and make them "Muslim Friendly" environments. Then we know where they are when we need to educate them.

Perhaps some sort of identification as well, because you know, not all muslims wear the funny headress. Some are audacious enough to walk around like they are actually members of our society. Yeah, they say they condemn terrorism, but you can't believe what people say. Unless they agree of course. Deep down, they all need the education. So we must be able to work out a way that true blue, real Aussies, can tell when there's a muslim around, especially if they are still undergoing our education program. Maybe they could sew a little crescent on their shirts or something.

It's just the beginning. There's so much else we can do to get rid of un-Australian thoughts. Think of the bright future our nation can have...

RaC

[Cameron Reilly]

You know Ross, I'm with you. How about we make sure the Muslims who have bought into our values and our belief all get a little tattoo on their arm with a number on it? And the ones that don't, well we're going to deport them. Of course, we'll have to find a country willing to take Muslim fundamentalists. If we can't find a country willing to take them, well, I'm sure we'll find some sort of "final solution" for them.

......

Now... seriously you guys, this "preaching of intolerance" that you are so scared of... you think it can be solved by being intolerant? That's your solution?

If that is your set of values, then I don't hold them. Perhaps you'll have to deport me as well.

[Rob Irwin]

When it's intolerance that has the ability to kill people, Cam, I'll be happily intolerant to it anyday.

[Cameron Reilly]

Rob, I believe the right to be intolerant is one of the most important rights we have in a democracy. Protection of the right to disagree with government policies, the right to disagree with the views of "the majority", is one of the basic tenants of a civilized society.

In our society, don't you think we should punish people for what they DO - not how they THINK or how they SPEAK? Do you really want to see the establishment of a thought police?

[Rob Irwin]

But unless we're talking a totally spontaneous act, it's the thoughts that people have which lead to what they do. Suicide bombings, for example, are pre-meditated - and very much driven by what people think, beforehand. I don't think any rational society would think it's right to sit back and let these things just happen to its members if there are chances to nip them in the bud.

[Cameron Reilly]

Jesus Rob, now you are really starting to worry me! You're advocating pre-crime?

Here's the main reason why we need to protect freedom of thought and freedom of speech - because progress is only EVER made by people whose opinions are unpopular. And yes - the price of that freedom is that some people will have dangerous thoughts. And we need to try to make sure that they don't act on those thoughts. But we can't do it by outlawing freedom of speech. It's a slippery slope Rob. I've spent most of my adult life studying history, and one thing I'm convinced of is that freedom of speech and freedom of thought is a rare prize in human societies. Those societies that are lucky enough to have it should value it and protect it at all costs.

[Rob Irwin]

Heh, well maybe not in the Minority Report sense, but I think there are topics which shouldn't be allowed to be discussed in open forums and preached to gullible people.

So, just as I think it's a good thing to stop the preaching of intolerance and the encouragement of suicide bombers, as I've been saying here, I also think it's a good thing that we don't allow public forums on how to kidnap children or other socially unpalatable concepts.

To follow your philosophy to the nth degree, it would actually be OK to have a public forum on "How To Kidnap Children"? As I suspect, however, it's a topic virtually everyone in society feels so strongly about that we don't allow it to happen. But isn't that a double standard to you... that we should be free to say what we want to say and do what we want to do... except when it's a topic near and dear to me.

This is why I can't be as Utopian as you in this, Cam. I know there are topics we just can't allow to propagate in society, or they will be like cancers. Yes, it's not ideal, I agree. Yes, it's a slippery slope, I agree. But I think we do better to try and put a lid on some topics than trying to live the dream and let people say and do whatever they want, 24x7. The world's not a place where you can do that very easily any more.

[Jesse Gibson]

Rob I think you have missed Cam's point - he is not suggesting that everyone should be entitled to say and DO whatever they want to. On the contrary he is explicitly stating that citizens should be punished for what they do when they are breaking the law, but not for any thoughts they might have about breaking the law.

There is already legistlation which prohibits people from directly inciting violence or hatred, as part of the international bill of human rights, and nobody is suggesting that such legislation should be discarded or watered down. It is a big jump from this legislation to the position which Brendan Nelson seems to be taking that we should instill (rather than educate about) "Australian values" and deport those who don't take to them readily enough. Who gets to judge what is Australian - I certainly wouldn't want Nelson to be telling me how I should behave in order to consider myself a true Aussie. He is, as usual in these situations, tarring the vast majority of law-abiding, happily assimilated Australian Muslims with the brush of extremism.

Taking your metaphor of undesirable free speech - I'm sure almost all Australians, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, would find forums promoting suicide bombing and terrorism as abohrant as forums promoting kidnapping children - as like a cancer, consider this. If the cancer is ignored then it will continue to grow unchecked and will eventually kill you. If forums of this nature are banned then they will simply go underground and perhaps not be seen or heard off again until they result in an act which kills many innocent people. If people are harboring violent and deadly urges, would it not be better to attempt to deal with the problem in the open rather than attempting to ban the symptoms?

There is not doubt the world is not as safe as it has ever been; nor, I'm sure, is it as unsafe as it has been in other periods of western history. I'm sure the citizens of France or the Jews in Germany feel a lot safer than did their counterparts 60 years ago. Our challenge today is to maintain the integrity of our democratic system and it's ideals in the face of a real, but managable, threat and in the face of the potentially more damaging threat of unjustified hysteria.